—You mentioned that most of the works were done under Stan Brakhage's instruction. What exactly did he instruct you to do?
For the first few films that we did together, he would bring his paint that he had and we would go to the optical printer room. I would just set up the printer and then I would sit behind the lens looking through with the remote control, which determines how many frames are to be copied at one time. He would say, "I like this section to be double-printed," so I would do that many frames. And then he would say, "let's do this just one to one," so one copy for each frame, I would do that. So he was sitting there the whole time telling me exactly how he wanted it to be printed, thinking of the rhythms in his head.
—Could you explain about each film? Or were they pretty much the same?
With Dark Tower, he just wanted to have this ominous tower represented somehow, and we kept cutting out different shapes of tower, seeing which one works the best, then putting it on the camera filter to have that with paint behind it. We just cut them out of pyeces of black paper. He didn't want it to be symmetrical, wo we just picked one he liked the best, and we used that. And with Cloud Chamber, that was actually Persian films that was just overexposed, really blown out. So it was one of the Persians, just printed differently.
—Do you know exactly which one of the Persians was it?
It's one of the earlier ones, probably 6 or 7, or maybe 8. That's one of the first ones we printed. It was just overexposed. My timing was off, so... And with Water for Maya, that was a piece of painting that Stan was doing while he was being interviewed for the Maya Deren documentary. They interviewed him while he was painting, and just decided that he made it for Maya. And he called it Water for Maya. While we were printing it, he said that Maya Deren had a way of letting people know if she had approved or not, and we would find out while were printing if it was OK with her. I guess she liked it. Nothing bad happened. Somewhere in the middle of the Persians that we were first printing, Stan would bring his paint and I would print it for him while he was sitting there telling me like a composer how he wanted it to go. And then after he was done, I would put on my own pieces that I had done. When I did it, I used the remote that's connected to the optical printer where I can just use my fingers and decide on each frame how many times I want to copy it or not. He got used to seeing that so then, he would also, while I was printing his films, he would look through the camera and see how the frame looked with the light behind it. Gradually he just started printing himself. So, somewhere in the middle of Persians, he actually started printing, and I would just sort of set them up, and load the camera and get the light right. Then I would just help him with my any dissolves or fades that he was doing. I would do the shutter while he was doing the remote for the printing. There are a couple, like Rounds which he gave me specific instructions. He did all the paintings and then he told me to print them two to one. So I just double-printed everything. That was the whole form of it. So he wasn't actually there, but gave me specific instruction. With Panels for the Walls of Heaven, there were three main rolls that he had printed. So there were A, B, and C rolls and he just printed them repeatedly in different combinations and, I think, pripnted by themselves as well. He was working heavily in that film. He was doing dissolves between the frames. I guess that was the main difference between this film and other films. Some of the other films had two strips of film at once in loops, but Panels was the first one we did together, where we had lots of rolls and specific ideas of how he was going to bind them together.
—Could you explain about Garden Path, the collaboration film?
That was actually... Stan gave me a bunch of separate loops from just a few we had at the time. Probably loops that he had from the last few years of hand-paintings. He probably gave me about maybe 10 loops and they were of different lenghts. Some were probably at least 4 or 5 feet and others were maybe just a foot. He gave them to me to print any combinations that show. I printed those and also filmed him while he was printing. It was his birthday (2001) and I filmed him painting and then filmed him later in that day when we were printing at the optical printer. So, that includes... his paint and his working methods. His paint has a little bit of my rhythms but I was still trying to print the way he kind of printed his film.
—So, what do you think is the difference between the films he made with you and the films he made with Phil Solomon or Sam Bush?
Well, I think, the biggest difference is, particularly with Sam Bush's, the rhythm that Stan repeated. Because when he worked with Sam Bush, he pretty much gave him a score and that was more like when I was first printing for him where he would say "this should be double-printed," or "now, the section should be triple-printed." So, Sam Bush would follow that score and that's how we worked first. Ben then once Stan became more comfortable, he created his own rhythm with the remote. So, he just varied the rhythm throughout the film, where one frame might be just one copy, and then the next frame might be three copies of the same frame. He just varied it and he seemed to be delighted in having the ability to control the rhythms more minutely than he had before. As far as Phil's and Stan's collaborations go, I think those are much more collaborations where both of them were really giving everything of their filmmaking in these combined works. With Elementary Phrases... they edited together, but then Stan did the final cut. So it was left with Stan's stamp on. But I think I feel in those films of theirs are much more stronger works of both Phil and Stan. Sam Bush and I were pretty much taking Stan's instructions and giving Stan the vision that he had on the film. But with Phil and Stan, that was much more a combined effort.
—Tell us about Stan's Window.
That's his lat film that he was working on. THat's all photographed images, and he hadn't really got the chance to se all the rolls that he had shot. He saw four of them and gave me the instructions of how he wanted to cut and he hadn't seen the fifth roll yet. Having talked to Marilyn and Phil Solomin, I have pretty much decided that it should be cut according to Stan's instructions. We would try to do something else with other rolls but not in Stan's Window. Because he had a very clear idea how he had wanted it done. So, although I'm doing the physical cut, it's not my editing at all. It's definitely how Stan wanted it to be and it's a very beautiful protrait of his life in Victoria.
—Could you tell us a little bit a bout the Chinese Series that you are working on?
He actually started scratching on 35mm in Victoria. I never saw him working on it, but other people who visited did see. I guess he was using his finger nails to scratch. When I saw him on the last visit, he said that it was finished and that I should take it and print it. He had very specific instructions again on the can of the film on how to print it. He just wants everything double-printed and then everything single-printed, so just two copies of it, right after the other. It's hopefully on 35mm and possibly on 16mm as well. But he felt that he had finished it, so my part in it is just to try to get the printing done. So we can see it.
—How do you think it's going to turn out?
Oh, I think it's going to be beautiful. It's at least about 40 feet long for 16mm. He started scratching on films after he got cancer the first time. This has a different quality. He has been waiting for several years to do the Chinese Series and just studying Chinese painting and calligraphy. Somehow, he really felt that was part of him and you can tell that in his scratches that are very expressive and definitely unique, when you get to see it all printed and together.
—What's your favorite Stan's work?
I like Coupling. That's my favorite hand-painted film. So many ... actually, hard to choose. Short Films is beautiful, and Dark Night of the Soul and...
—Can I ask you why?
I guess the colors that he gets. In Coupling, he used orange negative and it's just really beautiful. It has a different feeling as far as the colors go from his other films. As far as his earlier films, I like Tortured Dust, and so many. That one in particular really stood out for me. I think Sincerity, Duplicity Series were the first films that I saw here at the University of Colorado. Also there are a lot ... I really like Desistfilm, one of his earliest films. It's the spirit that he captures. Can't narrow it down
— Which of Stan's films influenced yours?
I guess, he's pretty much influenced all the films that I made. I'm influenced by him, by his works both earlier and later. But most definitely, the hand-painted works that I had done, like Moon Streams and Moose Mountain 2. I guess my way of taking what I learned from Stan and giving my own twist was to use traveling mats. In Moon Streams, paint is in shape of waterfalls. That was my experimentation with hand-painting
—Do you use the step printer a lot for your own work?
Yeah, I do. I use this printer and also a contact printer, which just takes what you have already shot and makes a copy exactly. I just combine that in black and white and in color, different images together. With a step printer, the film that you are making a copy of and the raw stock are never touching, whereas with a contact printer, it always sandwiches them right together, so it just makes an exact copy of it. The step printer at the University of Colorado is school property. We started out film studies in the building right next to the Fine Arts building in a room much smaller than this. So we like a lot this space now. It looks pretty bad though.
—Is there any class that uses a step printer?
Yes, the highest level, 16mm class, the class Phil usually teaches, he teaches this optical printing.
—Are there students who make films with this?
Yes, it varies. This quarter, he has 19 students in the class, but the last quarter, he had, I think, eight. It really varies. The equipment is talked about all the time while we are here, but we can't properly use that until the last class, so a lot of people are really excited to use it. Not just for hand paint or things like that, but other special effect kind of things.
—Are there students whose works are interesting?
Some. Maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of the films are really interesting.
—If you see any students with potential like you or Phil, please let us know.
Oh sure. In one particular class, there are usually three really interesting films. They usually have about three classes that are of a final level, the advanced level.
—In Japan, we also have good students' work at art schools. So, it would be nice if we can exchange their works.
(University of Colorado, March 2003)
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